I hate this part
Something called the Section Team Tournament gets under way tomorrow night to determine the section championships in Class AAA and Class AA. Four teams at eight sites will battle for the title.
Sounds like it might be a highly competitive and exciting event.
It won't be.
Nothing is on the line for these matches other than seeding in the WPIAL Team Tournament. The four teams at each of these sites advance to the WPIAL Team Tournament, which runs the first week of February. Those teams lucky enough to make it to the finals spend the following week in the PIAA Team Tournament.
When did wrestling become some a team event? When did the team portion of the season so intrude on wrestlers that many don't even compete after the team season because of the long layoff before the section tournaments?
Look at the down time for a wrestler who is not in the team tournament. The last regular season dual meets were held six days ago. It will be about a month before the section tournaments begin.
This is crazy.
The reason the team tournaments exist is to make money for the WPIAL and PIAA, to sell tickets for these events. No one is against these organizations making a profit, just so long as it's not in a long, drawn-out and utterly meaningless event as the team tournament.
How do I know it's meaningless.
The PIAA will crown a team champion in another 2 1/2 weeks. Then, at the individual tournament in Hershey, a new team champion is crowned and those wrestlers carry a trophy through the arena before getting their picture taken. What an insult to the team that had to battle through the state tournament a month before.
If the WPIAL wants a team tournament, fine. Take the section champions and hold the event over a Friday and Saturday, bill it as a wrestling extravaganza and hold it at some large school site. Hold the PIAA event the following week. Time used up in the season would be a week and a half from the last regular season dual meet.
I've ranted about this before and I keep saying this will be my last one. But I find the urge to criticize overwhelming.
Sounds like it might be a highly competitive and exciting event.
It won't be.
Nothing is on the line for these matches other than seeding in the WPIAL Team Tournament. The four teams at each of these sites advance to the WPIAL Team Tournament, which runs the first week of February. Those teams lucky enough to make it to the finals spend the following week in the PIAA Team Tournament.
When did wrestling become some a team event? When did the team portion of the season so intrude on wrestlers that many don't even compete after the team season because of the long layoff before the section tournaments?
Look at the down time for a wrestler who is not in the team tournament. The last regular season dual meets were held six days ago. It will be about a month before the section tournaments begin.
This is crazy.
The reason the team tournaments exist is to make money for the WPIAL and PIAA, to sell tickets for these events. No one is against these organizations making a profit, just so long as it's not in a long, drawn-out and utterly meaningless event as the team tournament.
How do I know it's meaningless.
The PIAA will crown a team champion in another 2 1/2 weeks. Then, at the individual tournament in Hershey, a new team champion is crowned and those wrestlers carry a trophy through the arena before getting their picture taken. What an insult to the team that had to battle through the state tournament a month before.
If the WPIAL wants a team tournament, fine. Take the section champions and hold the event over a Friday and Saturday, bill it as a wrestling extravaganza and hold it at some large school site. Hold the PIAA event the following week. Time used up in the season would be a week and a half from the last regular season dual meet.
I've ranted about this before and I keep saying this will be my last one. But I find the urge to criticize overwhelming.
posted by Joe Tuscano at
10:19 AM
21 Comments:
The team aspect of wrestling is awesome. Teams are made up of courageous individuals that help to make their teammates better by pushing each other daily to levels of exertion that are not usually achieved alone.
The team tournament is a dual event. The team crowned later in Hershey at the individual championships is not a team/dual event.
A man in your position Joe, should be able to see the merits of both.
If you must continue to lobby to have one of the events eliminated, choose the team crowned at the individual tournament.
If teams gel, there is no layoff for them next week.
Most kids love duals. They don't have the experience very often in Junior Wrestling. Middle School is the first dual experience for some. They learn that even if they lose and give up only 3 team points to a superior talent, they can still contribute to an overall effort. They learn that sometimes a dual tournament team champion can come down to a tiebreaker criteria or that unsportsmanlike conduct can negatively affect others beside themselves.
It's all good Joe, as long as there is a God in heaven and kids are wrestling, no matter the format.
If you read the post again, you will see that I do not begrudge the tournament. I loath the amount of time it takes to get it done. That's what makes it such a bad idea.
BTW, I have suggested the PIAA eliminate the team scores at the individual tournament without success.
I agree Joe. The whole concept is flawed.
If the teams would just wrestle everyone in their section once you would get a section champ. Subsections are stupid.
Wrestling is a dying sport !! This coming from a once avid fan who began watching it in 1960 !!! As you said Joe, the length and intrusion of this team tourney is ridiculous and contributes to the sport's continuing downward spiral. I long for the good old days when I stood in line outside the day before a match to get tickets to CM-CH, CM-Trinity, CM-Wash Hi, etc. !! The section tourney used to be a real event especially when the losers never advanced. The excitement back then was unparalleled.
I love the state dual format, i hope nothing changes -ever. this is an opportunity for the wrestlers to wrestle at states for there team, because they know there is no way they can make it there as an individual. Look at bethel park last year, they had a great dual meet team and there toury team was bad. I think they were ranked 5th in the state as a dual team and there tourny team was not even in the top 25. Hempfield was a prime example of this, who had the most state finalists last year? Hempfield with 3. they took 4th in the individual tourny and they weren't even in the top 25 as a dual team. I love this time of the year...
You are one of the few fans who LOVE the dual tournament. The PIAA was forced to expand the number of teams that qualify to increase attendance for the event. People just weren't interested. They also added full wrestlebacks, which I think is ludicrous.
Plus, they cut the reimbursement to the schools because of the cost. Bus rental for the weekend can run more than $1,000 for a team. That's not counting hotel rooms and food.
I do agree with your point about tournament teams and team scoring at the individual tournament. But don't hold your breath that the latter will ever be eliminated by the PIAA.
Joe,
I agree with you about shortening the time it takes to complete the team tourny. But, the team concept has always been there and needs to continue to flourish if wrestling is to survive. Wrestling is becoming to individualized to the point that schools will eventually drop their programs due to lack of the team concept. With the addition of wrestling clubs, kids no longer need the schools wrestling programs to compete at a high level. Problem with this however is that without school supported programs the sport will decline to a recreational sport like karate. Where only the kids that have money can pay to compete. We need to go oldschool here and bring back the team interest in this sport so it can survive. We need team matches in midgets again to excite the local communities to commit to the sport again. If not the sport will gradually fade away like Duquesne's athletic program.
For those who say sub sections are stupid, this is the reason for the change in format. the piaa lowered the points a team can use in a year by 3. this means a team had to use half of there points just to wrestle teams in their section. Well, the bottom teams in the section are terriable ( 5 or more forfeits per team) you are wasting team points on bad programs. the way it is set up now you have to wrestle every team in your sub section(4 points) and only the top 2 teams in the other sub section. giving the better teams, better compitition. so you can have a tougher schedual with the 3 team points you are saving, by not wrestling everyone in you section. the format is great for great teams,if you program is bad than blam your program, not the format.
Canon-Mac has its hands full with WA. Up 24-19 through nine bouts with CM getting four wins by pin and WA picking up five.
looks like it was only ONE hand full. CM 48, WA 19 FINAL.
Jefferson Morgan was ROBBED of the secton title tonight by Yough High school....I have never seen so many unsportsman like people in one place...the parents loudly Booing West Green wrestlers and in the match up with Jefferson almost every single match was stopped at least once for "INJURY TIME" which also happened to be when the wrestler was caught in a hold or about to be pinned...a match that should have taken an hour went almost 2....Jefferson Morgan clearly out wrestled Yough and they only won on forfiets...Which made them deleriously happy for some reason....Jefferson Morgan you won the section title 2010......A Parent Who Has No Wrestlers on Any Team I just like the sport....
Dear Chartiers Houston,
We are still awaiting the steamrolling we were promised. Please let us know when we can get together again. That was fun last night.
Your Friends,
The Burgettstown Blue Devils
2010 Section Champs
WPIAL Team brackets are posted.
http://www.wjpa.com/wrestling.htm
To this time 12 posts, 3 from the writers, 4 anonymous like the team tourney, 2 dislike (1 anonymous) with 3 posts that have nothing to do with the blog topic. Guess I have a problem with anonymous posts. Are they former wrestlers or fans or ...? Why would you hide your identity when taking a position?
Let's see. "...not usually achieved alone..." Guess what? No matter the team support you are on the mat ALONE.
Love this one, "...because they know there is no way they can make it there as an individual..." Too bad, so sad, need someone to carry me. Either you are good or not deserving to go to state.
And, "...the format is great for great teams..." Perhaps, and if you want only one or two schools in each county to have wrestling teams, keep the team tournament. Add to this, "...team concept has always been there and needs to continue to flourish..." If you want young wrestlers to continue to want to participate at ALL schools reqardless if their team is "great" or not, bring back the Friday/Saturday rival matches.
Joe, get off the fence and "begrudge the tournament."
Let me add what I also wrote on-line last weekend, slightly changed.
Team Tournament : 1/22/2010
Worst idea, team tournament, ever for high school wrestling. The "glory days of wrestling" are gone and gone forever as long as the PIAA-WPIAL-etc. continue to attempt to use the sport to fill their coffers and not offer the fan and athlete INDIVIDUAL competition. There is a GREAT wrestler on some team that is being cheated with this TEAM tournament. Wrestling is an INDIVIDUAL sport. Proof is in the "small" school champions at the county tournaments. I wish someone had told Dave Cook in 65-66 that he was from a small school. The only team championship is at the end of the season when each individual wrestler is a state winner and the points are tallied for all their efforts. Bring back rival matches and the boisterous, large crowds will fill the gyms again. My observation was the crowd at the CM vs. Trinity match was larger (definitely louder) than the attendance at the Tri-County Tournament. It was actually exciting and fun to be in the bleachers once again. I can only imagine how thrilled and proud the wrestlers were to perform for such an intense crowd. Perhaps the teams are totally unbalanced at this point in time. Coach Marino will make it worth everyone’s time with time because the rivalry exists. Ever coach knows that ONE good wrestler makes the entire season of struggles worth the time and effort to get that individual to the top. Again, let me restate, one good wrestler is sitting home for the next couple weeks. At one time you never even needed a schedule to find a good wrestling match. Show up at any high school on a Friday or Saturday evening and you probably found a match. Now the wrestling schedules are fractured and filled with "TBA" and that does not even begin to consider locations only a parent could love. My family attended ever match back when. Today's schedule would make that impossible. Not being able to get known by your high school peers and the fans and nonfans in your local community is a great loss to these young people. Sad. As much as I love the sport and as much as I love supporting these young wrestlers, I will not attend the team tournament. Will anything in high school wrestling change because I do not attend? No. If enough refuse to support the team concept of wrestling by not attending the team tournament and refuse to line the pockets of PIAA, perhaps the message of local and new rivalries for individual wrestlers will bring back the Friday nights in the gym and those "glory days." Tom Gazvoda
Why did B-town forfeit at 45? Especially so early in the match. Send out somebody, anybody, worst case you give up 6 but aleast it's not automatic.
See the final score.
It must have been an ok move.
Tom Gazvoda likes to read what he wrote on the internet.
Whew.
I know i was there, just trying to understand the strategy. I realize H has been coaching forever and knows what he's doing.
The question should be why didn't they have Innes wrestle Red Fleming? It was Innes who bumped.
CHA CHING
First off I think most of us use the anonymous selection b/c were lazy. Sorry Tom without a last name you are still anonymous to me. Secondly, Wrestling has always been an individualized sport. The difference between now and the good ol' days are the rival matches but, without something to wrestle for the rival matches will diminish to just another individual match. I'm a youth wrestling coach this year because my son just started the sport. It is so different from when I wrestled. They just pair kids up who are similar in weight and experience. It makes for a lot of chaos to say the least. When I wrestled youth there were actual matches and you represented your school in the weight class you wrestled which made you feel even more important than if it were just an individualized match. These youth matches continued through junior and senior high and I truely believe that is why the rival matches were so great. Now that things have become more individualized, the team pride is just not there anymore as stated by your comments above. And when the schools do not bring in the funds to keep the sport running they will drop the programs and the sport will suffer. I think what your saying is that the piaa needs to allow the schools to compete in more events/tournaments to allow the kids more individualized competition as well as the team concept. I agree with you on that but, still realize that without school support this sport will loose more competition than it will gain.
That's a good point. Again, I do not want to see the elimination of the team portion of the season because some wrestlers compete only in that segment to be part of a team. That's important in any sport. I just want to see it shortened.
Look at the pairings for the WPIAL Team Tournament in today's paper. There are some teams that will be forfeiting three or four weight classes who qualified. Is it really necessary to have those teams in the event?
If it were run on a more abbreviated schedule, the regular season could be extended by - what? - another week. That would allow for more dual meets or tournament participation if a team so desired. That also might help keep the rivalries fresh.
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